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Wednesday, October 15, 2014

SW Echo Theory Confirmed By a BBC Engineer


BBC Relay Station Singapore


Hi Bill,
I heard your description of the echo on your podcast and before listening I knew the cause - but I think you know that now!

Yes, it's from two separate transmitters, and quite common, though not usually noticed.
It has nothing to do with path length differences - the longest round-the-world echo via the ionosphere is only about 0.15 seconds - so anything more has a different cause.
It's from the audio feed to the transmitter. Your regen receiver picked up two transmitters on different frequencies. It was very noticeable before transmitters used digital land-line feeds, just analogue and satellite.

On a BBC SW frequency (forget the which one now) one tx was in UK and the other in Singapore, on the same frequency with the same programme to completely different service areas. When propagation was right and listening in Europe, the UK signal fed by analogue audio from Bush House came first and the Singapore tx came with two geostationary satellite delays later, plus the tiny bit of UK-Singapore ionospheric path difference.

Now it's worse because there are all sorts of digital delays via land-line and satellite, although using the same frequency for the same service in not common.

In the UK Absolute Radio on AM medium-wave has multiple transmitters (mostly 1215 kHz and 1197 kHz) on the same frequency which are audible at night. If you listen carefully you can often hear multiple (up to FOUR!) echoes from different transmitters all being fed by different internet feeds/satellite links with varying delays. 

As an ex-BBC engineer, I can tell you that in the old days not only were these AM medium-wave group stations all synched to within 0.05Hz, but the phase of the modulation was adjusted so all tramsitters were modulating in phase! Now the commercial boys have taken over most of these syched groups, not only are the frequencies all over the place, but the modulation isn't even time delayed to match, let alone synchronized! Some even put diferent commercials in the breaks so if you're geographically between stations you get a complete, unlistenable-to mess. Apparently these days that's ok.

Why did we bother...?

Anyway, I hope this adds to and confirms your findings.
73,
Ian Liston-Smith, G4JQT

(A grumpy old retired BBC Engineer)

Our book: "SolderSmoke -- Global Adventures in Wireless Electronics" http://soldersmoke.com/book.htm Our coffee mugs, T-Shirts, bumper stickers: http://www.cafepress.com/SolderSmoke Our Book Store: http://astore.amazon.com/contracross-20
at 5:16 AM
Labels: Short Wave Listening, Singapore, UK

1 comment:

  1. Rupert GoodwinsOctober 15, 2014 at 12:53 PM

    A similar but different HF delay effect used to be noted in the good old days of high power SW broadcast, where an identical programme transmitted from the sane site on two bands had a noticeable delay between the two frequencies. Couldn't be feed latency... it turned out that a deliberate delay was introduced so that both transmitters didn't hit modulation peaks at the same time, thus smoothing out the load on the local power supply. When you're talking multiple fifty- or hundred-kW AM outputs, this sort of thing soon adds up to real power...

    Rupert, G6HVY

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    KK4DAS MB 20 Transceiver Complete - The MB 20 transceiver is now complete. The rig is a homebrew 10-watt 20-meter SSB transceiver. The VFO module was an ebay purchase of a salvaged Yeasu...
    2 months ago
  • Popcorn Electronics
    A Curious 9 MHz Crystal from Mouser Electronics - Just a quick post to share info about a good 9 MHz crystal sold by Mouser Electronics. I last purchased batches of crystals for xtal IF filters back in 2...
    4 months ago
  • Charlie Morris ZL2CTM
    40m Pelican Case SSB Radio - Part 10: RF PA and LPF -
    5 months ago
  • Charlie Morris, ZL2CTM
    40m Pelican Case SSB Transceiver - See YouTube channels for details: http://www.youtube.com/c/CharlieMorrisZL2CTM *Test code for the LCD and Si5351* #include ...
    6 months ago
  • A 51S-1 Restoration Story – Grayson Evans's Technical Documents
    Hollow-State Design, 3rd Edition - Hollow-State Design, 3rd Edition is available from: Lulu Press: tinyurl.com/hollowstatedesign3 eBay: search for “hollow-state design” Electric Radio bookst...
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  • MiscDotGeek
    I Finally Bought My Dream Airplane - Aviation has been a love of mine since I was a very little person. Living in Nevada, seeing posters and ads for the Reno Air Races, specifically the Texa...
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  • DK7IH HF Radio Engineering
    New post: A “Walkie-Talkie” SSB transceiver for 14MHz or the higher RF bands - To access this article, please click link: A “Walkie-Talkie” SSB transceiver for 14MHz or higher rf bands
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  • TheRadioBoard Forums
    Other Electronic Projects • Re: Can I normalize both Mono Amp Outputs? - radm49 wrote: ↑ Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:56 am qmavam wrote: ↑ Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:57 pm Yes, you can use a wall wart for power, you might need to add a capacit...
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  • VK3HN
    A battery powered 50W 160m AM transceiver for your backpack - This project is a compact 160m AM transceiver capable of up to 50 watts of fuly modulated carrier, designed for portable use. The transmitter portion uses...
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  • HF SIGNALS -- Farhan, BITX, Antuino
    Modifications to the Dayton/FDIM-2019 Antuino - The Dayton Antuino has sub-optimal performance. This is a short note on improving it to an 80 db range of measurements. The trouble with Antuino 2.0 (the o...
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  • Small Wonder QRP by K.P.S. Kang
    - *FIREO**©* *A LOW POWER SSB/CW TRANSCEIVER WITH ITS UNIQUE SPEECH PROCESSING* “FIREO” (Pronounced FIRE-O), is basically a bit of non-conventional QRP (...
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  • QRP Labs Kits Hans Summers, QCX, QSX and more
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    10 years ago
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    16 years ago
  • Bunker of DOOM 8-) Welcome!
    -
  • RF Cafe Homepage
    -
  • The Radio Shop - YouTube
    -
  • Antique Radio Forums Index page
    -
  • HA5KHC Links to Ham Circuits
    -
  • SV3ORA QRP & Homebrew
    -
  • ND6T's Easy Ham Radio Projects
    -
  • Wes W7ZOI's Web Site
    -
  • ZL2PD Amateur Radio and Homebrew Electronics Website
    -
  • Pasta Pete you're in for a Treat!
    -
  • SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids
    -
  • PH2LB shack on the internet. - Ham radio
    -
  • Harry's Homebrew Homepages
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  • Tony G4WIF's Site
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  • Bob's Electron Bunker
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