Part 2: CuriousMarc Fixes an All-Discrete Counter -- "Like an IC, but in discrete form."

Marc nicely sums up this project with this line:  "It's an IC but in discrete form!"  On the same theme, he later says, "Who needs a logic analyzer when you can do a visual debug with neon bulbs?" 

Very cool.  Lots of troubleshooting and repair lessons in this video: 

-- Again we see the benefits of paper manuals.  (Todd K7TFC commented astutely on this under yesterday's post.)

-- 2N2222s to the rescue.  

-- A surprisingly large number of bad transistors (6?) found.  Why did they go bad? 

-- Marc repeatedly says, "Let me poke around."  Poking around is often important.  Mark fixes the reset line after poking around.  He is not sure HOW he has fixed it, but he has... by poking around.  Sometimes this happens.  Thank God for small favors. 

-- Marc has some fancy HP board extenders.  I am jealous.  

-- He also has a cool de-soldering tool.  More jealousy.  Want one. 

-- Marc's understanding of how the HP engineers had to put one of the flip-flops "on the edge of stability," and how his 'scope probe was capable of disturbing this stability. 

-- Remember that those Nixies are TUBES with enough voltage on them to really zap you.  So be careful in there.  This is an especially dangerous mix of transistor tech and tube tech.  With transistors you can work on them with the rig fired up.  With tubes, well, you have to be careful.

Part III tomorrow. 

CuriousMarc Repairs an old DISCRETE COMPONENT HP Frequency Counter

I really liked this repair video from CuriousMarc (aka AJ6JV).  This counter pre-dates the use of integrated circuits -- it is all discrete transistors.  Near the end, Marc mentions how this made this repair "like debugging a big integrated circuit, but with access to each transistor -- this made it quite satisfying."  I hear ya Marc -- with big ICs maybe all you would get to do would be to swap out a single IC.  There would not be much of a challenge there.  

With the older, discrete circuitry you get a good view of how Marc troubleshoots -- how he finds the precise points where the device is failing.  Note his use of the old HP paper manuals. I know this is an old guy thing, but I think the paper manuals (as opposed to the online versions)  just make the process easier.  Note too that Marc at one point had to go back to microfiche. 

The transistor tester Mark used was very cool. 

The whole physical structure of the HP device is very similar to my NYC HP8640B.  Thanks again Steve Silverman and Dave Bamford. 

I will look at Parts II and III of this series soon.  

SolderSmoke Podcast #244 PETE IS BACK! TR-7, CK722, BFR106, HP8640B, High-School Receiver, 10 Min TX, MAILBAG

SolderSmoke Podcast #244 Is available:

http://soldersmoke.com/soldersmoke244.mp3

Video version at:

(118) SolderSmoke - YouTube

HE’S BACK! HOORAY! PETE JULIANO N6QW IS BACK! SOLDERSMOKE COMMUNITY WAS SENT INTO A COLLECTIVE FUNK BY PETE’S ABSENCE. ---------------- Pete’s TR-7 (SEE VIDEO ABOVE) CK722 The BFR106

Pete's new blog: https://hamradiogenius.blogspot.com/ ---- Update on the high school project: Mixers made. Harder than they seemed. First QSO with the DC RX. Allan W4AMV Homebrewer TRGHS Ten Minute Transmitter – Better than the MMM! AF4K (SK) crystals. Other supporting projects: Farhan in Hyderabad. Rick N3FJZ, Walter KA4KXX, Andreas DL1AJG Electronics for Biologists. Peter Marks VK3TPM (fighting the siren call of the Si5351) . Steven VK2BLQ built a beautiful one. Daniel VE5DLD will build three of them with his students. Orlando PY2ANE is building one in Brazil. This week: The Bandpass Filter. (Thank you Hans Summers) --- SHAMELESS COMMERCE DIVISION: BECOME A PATRON VIA PATREON. I am posting some fun stuff for the Patrons. AMAZON SHOPPING ADS Now on both the left and right columns. CHECK OUT Mostly DIY RF in the right hand column. ---- My HP8640B Lives to Fight another day. Two new DMMs A low-end Fluke and a AstroAI 6000 Electrolytic Replacement Controversy Continues

Mailbag: -- Dave AA7EE is blogging again! Yea! -- Mike Rainey AA1TJ back in the Hobbit Hole Building a WWVB receiver. -- Farhan is coming to FDIM. -- Tony G4WIF reminds us that 39 bucks for JUST a 60 MHz counter would be great! -- Dave VE3EAC again helped me fix my HP8640B. -- Dean KK4DAS finalizing 10 meter DSB rig. FB. Upgraded my NanoVNA. -- Mike KD4MM giving me a Nano VNA for the SolderSmoke Shack South. -- Ian VK3LA asked what happened to Chuck Adams content. Good question. -- Don ND6T and I have been discussing envelope detection. -- Nick M0NTV working on AM modulators. He has a new video. -- Ciprian YO6DXE built a Ten Minute Transmitter. -- Steve EI5DD Connacht Regional News: https://www.docdroid.net/YJAV800/crnews0223-pdf

Hyderabad DC RX Workshop

Farhan explaining the receiver in Hyderabad

https://soldersmoke.blogspot.com/2023/03/pictures-from-farhans-hyderabad-high.html

My HP8640B Signal Generator Lives Again

I'd really come to like this old signal generator.  The construction is superb.  It was built to be repaired.  As you open it up you find all kinds of useful diagrams and pointers.  It is very solidly built - it looks like something that was built for the Apollo program.  And it was given to me by a friend:  Steve Silverman KB3SII gave it to me in 2017 -- he had it in his New York City shack.  Dave Bamford W2DAB picked it up for me just before Steve moved out of the city.  

I've already done one complex  repair on it -- one of the tines on one of the selection switches fell of and I had to replace the tine.  That was difficult, but it was a very satisfying repair.  

But lately, the HP8640B started acting up again.  It developed an intermittent problem that caused both the signal generator and the frequency counter to just shut down.  

I was thinking that this might be the end of the road for the HP8640B.  I even started looking for alternatives.  But they were all very unappealing.  They come in plastic boxes with names like Feeltech and Kooletron.  The boxes are filled with flaky wiring and boards hot glued to the plastic.  Yuck.  The contrast with the HP8640B could not be stronger.  

So I started to think about the problem.  This was the first part of the troubleshooting process.  I asked myself:  What would cause several different systems (counter, frequency generator, and display) to all shut down?   The power supply was a leading candidate.  

I started reading the power supply section of the HP8640B manual.  There was a line in there that caught my eye:  The power supply boards had on them LEDs that glowed if the board was functioning.  Thank you Hewlett Packard!  I opened the top of the signal generator and found the power supply boards. Sure enough, there were the LEDs.  I turned the generator on, and found that one of the lights was out. Bingo. (Trevor takes a look at the power supply boards in the video above.  I have it cued up to the 12:57 point at which he talks about and shows these boards.) 

Here was the other clue:  The problem was intermittent.  It kind of seemed like a loose connection.  So I just unseated the board and took it out.  I put some De-Oxit on the connector and popped it back in.  Boom:  The LED came on and the HP8640B came pack to life. 

There is a whole bunch of great info and videos on the HP8640B on the internet.  It is almost as if a cult has developed.  This signal generator is worthy of a cult following.  Count me in.  

I especially liked the video below.  Kevin really captures the admiration that many of us feel toward the way this piece of gear was built.  He also kind of hints at the way this sig gen could become a pirate transmitter on the FM broadcast band (at 8:44):  

I know that eventually the problematic plastic gears in this device might fall apart.  I am prepared for this:  I already have the metal replacement gears from India.   

Thanks again to Steve Silverman KB3SII and Dave Bamford W2DAB for bringing me into the HP8640B cult. 

SolderSmoke Podcast #226 The U.S. Election, Solar Cycle, uSDX, Hermes, HP8640B, SGC 600 Sig Gen, HA-600A, Mailbag

SolderSmoke Podcast # 226  

http://soldersmoke.com/soldersmoke226.mp3

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About the U.S. election

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Mars:  Setting early, will have to shift to evening observation.  Weather has been poor. 

Sunspot Cycle 25 is underway -- SFI 78, SN 32  

The Gliessberg cycle

Pete's Bench:  #49,  #50,  uSDX,  Hermes Lite

Bill's Bench: HP8640B,  Global Specialties Corp 6000 counter, Lafayette HA600A.

MAILBAG:

Peter VK2EMU Sent me copy of 1947 Handbook.  Thanks Peter

Brad W1BCC Spotted 10 S-38s for 80 bucks on Craig’s list.  What’s going on here? 

Dale K9NN sent both Pete and I care packages with very cool part, including DG Mosfets

Stuart ZL2TW sent me Les Moxon’s Antenna Book.  TRGHS. Moxon will be back! 

Alvin N5VZH got his receive converter with a little Tribal Knowledge from SS. 

GM4OOU The Bitsy DSB rig from Scotland

Peter VK3YE DSBto DC incompatibility SOLVED

Paul VK3HN's Digital SWR and Power Meter and Low band AM TX VFO/Controller FB Videos. 

VK2BLQ alerts us to article about Jac Holzman of Elektra Records. 

AA0ZZ great message on assembler language and writing software the hard way. 

HP8640B Internal Frequency Counter Fixed (More Repairs Pending)

 

The HP8640B is a complicated machine.  Above you see just one sub-assembly, and the page from the manual that describes it.  This is what I've been working on.  The little spring "tine" fell out of one of those discs behind the two control knobs.  So I had to open this thing up, find the spot from which the tine had fallen, and glue it back in.   

I used Gorilla Super Glue, followed 24 hours later by a dab of JB Weld "minute weld" dual epoxy. One of the other tines was about to fall out, so I went ahead and gave all the tines in this assembly the glue treatment.  ( I bought some "Weld On" acrylic cement but the warnings on the label were quite sobering.  So I left that can sealed up.) 

This morning I put the thing back together.  This is not easy.  At one point a spring popped and a tiny metal part that is probably irreplaceable seemed to fly away into the black hole that is the shack's carpet.   I had just about given up hope when I found the thing sitting right in front of me on the bench.  TRGHS. 

The HP8640B fired up right away without trouble and the internal frequency counter is working fine. 

As I noted in the last SolderSmoke podcast, a very nice community devoted to the HP8640B has developed around the world.  Here are some of the notable participants: 

Bill at Electronics Revisited is a very nice fellow with lots of experience on the HP8640B.  He offered to sell me a replacement unit for the assembly pictured above.  If you have an ailing HP8640B and are looking for someone to work on it for you, Bill is the guy you should talk to:  http://www.electronicsrevisited.com/  He also very kindly offers to answer any questions you may have about the HP8640B. 

Here is the e-bay page of the fellow in Bangalore who makes the brass gears.  Mine are on the way! 

https://www.ebay.com/usr/engineeringideas?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

Marcus VE7CA has a great site devoted to the HP8640B: https://www.ve7ca.net/TstH86.htm

BH1RBG in China has a nice site describing his adventures with the HP8640B: https://sites.google.com/site/linuxdigitallab/home/hp8640b-20v-power-supply-down

K6JCA has a good blog post about fixing the tines and the gears: 

http://k6jca.blogspot.com/2018/09/repair-log-hp-8640b-rotary-switches-and.html

Steve Silverman (who gave me this HP8640B) found a really useful  history of the device: 

http://hpmemoryproject.org/timeline/bob_devries/some_memories_05.htm#part_05_chapt_09

And of course special thanks to Dave VE3EAC who alerted me to the falling tine problem and put me on the path to a successful repair.  

The gears should be here in a few weeks, so that will be another opportunity to work on this HP8640B.  Also there are some tines in the attenuator assemby that might reinforce with the glue treatment. 

HP8640B -- Fault Found! A very TINY and Hard-to-Fix Fault

 

I've been troubleshooting the internal counter in my HP8640B signal generator. The generator itself works fine.  And the counter works fine for all signals coming in on its "external" port.  But the internal counter stopped working properly above 16 MHz. So I started digging into the manuals and the schematics, re-familiarizing myself with the digital logic behind pre-microcontroller  frequency counters.  NOTE:  If you are working on one of these, be sure to be using the correct version of the manual and schematic. At one point I found a really nice high def copy of an HP8640B manual (for one used in a Patriot Missile System!) only to discover that MY A8A3 board was significantly different from the one in this manual.  BAMA provided a manual that matched my device:  http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/hp/8640b/

Every dark cloud has a silver lining.   Here, the silver for me came from opening up the HP8640B.  What an impressive looking piece of gear.  It looks like something from the Apollo command module, or perhaps from a nuclear weapon.  "The RF source is a 256 to 512 MHz cavity-tuned oscillator that is mechanically tuned..."  There is phase lock circuitry.  The are AM and FM modulators and a really useful array of attenuators.  There is a frequency counter with an external port and an internal frequency counter that measures the original 256-512 MHz signal, then divides down to give a very accurate readout of the output frequency.    This is the kind of device that would generate a cult following.  Count me in! 

Also,  I've sometimes lamented the lack of VHF test gear on my work bench -- the HP8640B could really help me move me into the VHF range.

I started the troubleshooting with some observations and noodling. At what frequency did the internal counter stop working?  What did the readout look like when it stopped working?  What device failure could lead to these symptoms?  I was aided in this by suggestions sent in by readers of my previous blog posts.  Thanks guys.  

I was just getting ready to start some intrusive testing on the logic devices in the internal counter when Dave VE3EAC sent me this: 

-----------------

I think you might be overthinking the failure mode here. I had a similar problem with my unit and it was one of my early Covid-fix-it projects. There is an assembly that controls the bands on the front. It has the famous gears that crack. On the back side are two sets of rotary switches that control a lot of stuff. The switches are of a very unique HP design and offer a lot of advantages over traditional switches EXCEPT they fail in an unusual manner. A PC board has all of the interesting wiring and very tiny double leaf springs short tracks together as needed. The springs tend to break away from the plastic posts on the rotating plate and not make the needed contact. Very carefully examine the insides of the 8640 and your bench top to see if any have fallen out. These are difficult to buy or fabricate. The disk is designed to be rotated 180 and use a new set of posts to locate the springs. Use a small dab of epoxy to set in place. The totally mechanical repair fixed my unit that also would not read above 16 MHz. There are a number of web pages that give great detail of this repair. Also it is worth while to replace the Delrin gears if they are cracked. Replacement brass ones are available on eBay and they will permanently fix the gear problem.

---------------

I had thought about the problem being in the frequency range switch, but I had sort of tested for this by slowly rocking the switch through various positions as I watched the display.  A dirty rotary switch will usually allow the circuit to intermittently work as you rock the switch.  But this didn't happen.  And the HP switch felt quite sturdy, so I focused on the circuitry.  

When I got VE3EAC's message, I carefully flipped the HP8640B over and for the first time opened the bottom of the compartment.  The bottom view is much more impressive than the top view: 

The switches that VE3EAC wrote about  are just below the ribbon cable near the center front. I could see the little springs that he was discussing on the switches.  They appear MUCH more delicate than the rotator on a standard rotary switch.  And I didn't see any of them lying around below the switch.  But when I tried to flip the HP8640B over, something in there moved and caught my eye.  I pulled out some tweezers and pulled this out: 

Wow.  That little spring contact fell off the switch.  That was preventing the HP8640B internal counter's time base from changing as I went above 16 MHz.   It is ironic that such a big and solidly built device such as the HP8640B should be laid low by such a TINY part.  

This gets me back to my original question:  Discretion or valor?  Getting that spring back onto that switch will not be easy.  VE3EAC sent me this K6JCA link describing how to do this.  Yikes, it even requires the purchase of a special tool!  

http://k6jca.blogspot.com/2018/09/repair-log-hp-8640b-rotary-switches-and.html

I'm going to let the HP8640B sit there with the cover off for a while.  It will be taunting me, challenging me to fix it, to make it work the way Hewlett and Packard intended.  It may take a while, but I think I'm going to have to accept this challenge. I've become  real fan of the HP8640B and it would be a shame to leave it wounded like this. 

The Agony of Troubleshooting -- From China

 

I am troubleshooting my beloved NYC HP8640B Signal Generator (thanks to Steve Silverman and Dave Bamford).  Some of you may wonder why I don't just replace this beast with something small, lighter, cheaper and newer.  Well, I have not found any new sig generators that will do what this beast does:   It goes all the way up to 256 MHz (higher with an extension kit).  It has a great attenuator in it so you can set the output just where you want it.  AM or FM modulation.  Really useful.  So I think I'll fix it. 

My problem is that the internal freq counter stops working above 16 MHz. Using the very extensive  documentation, and without even really opening up the machine, I think I have located the fault.  I think it is in the Counter Time Base Assembly board A8A3.   Now of course, the fun begins.  (Tips, advice, solutions, and words of encouragement would all be appreciated.) 

While planning my assault on A8A3, I came across the web site of BH1RBG.  He too has recently been working on an HP8640B.  His problem was different, but when I read through his site I saw evidence that the agony of troubleshooting is something that is the same all around the world.  Check out his description of the agony: 

I even suspected the LM723 should had something bootstrapping circuit, make sure the Q4 sure start. Because the external reference VR3 is floating too, oh, my godness.

I became hopeless, and ordered several LM732,and waiting delivery for days. This beast frustrate me so deeply, changed the LM723 does not help anything. And i almost desoldering everything in the board!

Oh man, I've been there. Several times while in the throes of a troubleshooting battle I have actually had dreams of removing all the parts from a troublesome PC board.

BH1RBG has a very interesting site with lots of ham radio projects: 

https://sites.google.com/site/linuxdigitallab/rf-ham-radio?authuser=0